Yes! It drives me bonkers when historical characters don't seem to be immersed in the actual mindset of their times, with the very real risks and prejudices and pressures and so forth. Which isn't to say they can't break new ground, but doing so shouldn't have this simplistic "of course" ease and inevitability.
Yes! It drives me bonkers when historical characters don't seem to be immersed in the actual mindset of their times, with the very real risks and prejudices and pressures and so forth. Which isn't to say they can't break new ground, but doing so shouldn't have this simplistic "of course" ease and inevitability.
The TV series "Hacks" addressed this more realistically, I think ... where a young comedy writer is teamed with a veteran female comedian who had to make the kinds of compromises you talked about. And they open each other's eyes as well as pointing out each other's stumbling blocks. While the older comedian is now, under the influence of the younger, willing to take new risks with the kind of material she wouldn't have been able to do 30 years ago, the show doesn't present it as "now she's seen the light" but more "this is what's possible now."
An excellent book about women in comedy--from Phyllis Diller/Moms Mabley/Lucille Ball/Elaine May up through the present day--is Yael Kohen's WE KILLED. It's an oral history, based on interviews with the performers and writers themselves, and you can really see how both comedy and women's rights evolved through the past 80 years.
Oh, you're absolutely right about HACKS, and of course Jean Smart is always fantastic.
I know part of this is generational -- that it's really hard to imagine earlier times, and maybe it's especially hard to imagine the previous generation, because in many ways, the sensibilities are similar, so it can be very deceiving. Then again, if you're writing historical fiction, I think you have a responsibility to consider these days.
I have to look for this book. I see it's not at either of my libraries.
I think that's the only way to do it -- and interviews, if folks are still alive. Movies and TV too, if they're available in that time period, although (unlike books), I think that's more of an "idealized" version of reality.
It's always tough, though, because there is a tension between that sensibility-of-the-era, and also accessibility. Go too far in one direction, and modern audiences can't engage.
Semi-tangentially: Did you ever see the two PBS series, "1900 House" and "Colonial House," in which ordinary people tried to live as in earlier periods of history? It was heartening to see that most people had difficulty resetting to some of the earlier mindsets around inequality, but occasionally someone would get into their power over women/minorities/indentured servants in a flash of creepiness. It was also fascinating to see people cope, in a very immediate and realistic way, with the totally different standards for cleanliness, and availability of food and other goods. Most of all, everyone was struck by the sheer amount of physical labor that people expended in the past, compared to our more sedentary lifestyles now. "Doing the laundry," for example, was a real athletic workout.
Yes! It drives me bonkers when historical characters don't seem to be immersed in the actual mindset of their times, with the very real risks and prejudices and pressures and so forth. Which isn't to say they can't break new ground, but doing so shouldn't have this simplistic "of course" ease and inevitability.
The TV series "Hacks" addressed this more realistically, I think ... where a young comedy writer is teamed with a veteran female comedian who had to make the kinds of compromises you talked about. And they open each other's eyes as well as pointing out each other's stumbling blocks. While the older comedian is now, under the influence of the younger, willing to take new risks with the kind of material she wouldn't have been able to do 30 years ago, the show doesn't present it as "now she's seen the light" but more "this is what's possible now."
An excellent book about women in comedy--from Phyllis Diller/Moms Mabley/Lucille Ball/Elaine May up through the present day--is Yael Kohen's WE KILLED. It's an oral history, based on interviews with the performers and writers themselves, and you can really see how both comedy and women's rights evolved through the past 80 years.
Oh, you're absolutely right about HACKS, and of course Jean Smart is always fantastic.
I know part of this is generational -- that it's really hard to imagine earlier times, and maybe it's especially hard to imagine the previous generation, because in many ways, the sensibilities are similar, so it can be very deceiving. Then again, if you're writing historical fiction, I think you have a responsibility to consider these days.
I have to look for this book. I see it's not at either of my libraries.
I find that reading books from the time in question help with getting that period's mindset, vocabulary, etc.
As for Yael Kohen's book--yeah, I had to order it. I found it worth it, though; I've read it more than once!
I think that's the only way to do it -- and interviews, if folks are still alive. Movies and TV too, if they're available in that time period, although (unlike books), I think that's more of an "idealized" version of reality.
It's always tough, though, because there is a tension between that sensibility-of-the-era, and also accessibility. Go too far in one direction, and modern audiences can't engage.
Semi-tangentially: Did you ever see the two PBS series, "1900 House" and "Colonial House," in which ordinary people tried to live as in earlier periods of history? It was heartening to see that most people had difficulty resetting to some of the earlier mindsets around inequality, but occasionally someone would get into their power over women/minorities/indentured servants in a flash of creepiness. It was also fascinating to see people cope, in a very immediate and realistic way, with the totally different standards for cleanliness, and availability of food and other goods. Most of all, everyone was struck by the sheer amount of physical labor that people expended in the past, compared to our more sedentary lifestyles now. "Doing the laundry," for example, was a real athletic workout.